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> Beauty and success
nara
post Apr 12 2015, 11:55 AM
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This is a subject which I've seen discussed lots on the internet and I would be curious to see how things are in your own countries.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-...more-successful

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/201304260546...ccessful-really

http://uk.businessinsider.com/beautiful-pe...ey-2014-11?r=US

What's the key of success in life in your country? How much good looks help to increase or decrease people’s chances?

I read different American articles stating that beautiful people have statistically more chances of success than plain people. They are said to be likely to have more success in love (and get higher salaries at work than plain people) and have more chances than the others to settle down well, women especially.

Looking around I can see some examples which would support this rule also in my reality were girls who are beautiful and with more sex appeal had more suitors consequentially some found a rich partner and are leading an easy and perfect life, in a big house, with a big dog and everything they can wish for without too much effort. Beautiful women and handsome men with average intellectual capabilities could land beautiful jobs than men and women equally intelligent or qualified. Plain men and women have to work much harder to reach the same objectives.

Then there is the other side of the coin:

I see plain women/men who drop one partner and next day they have a brand new one while others stay single forever. I even read an article that this may be due for genetic reasons.

What are your thoughts?

If beauty equals success as they say, it's quite a depressing reality for plain people..

:-(


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Anneth White
post Apr 12 2015, 02:42 PM
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No nara, I don īt see or think so.

Beautiful physical people only get more money if they work in that kind of business as a model, or any work associated to business relationships. It is suppose that they must being attractive to get attention to normal people and sell the item he/she must sell (for beauty or for business like properties, cars or things like that).

But for the other kind of jobs the people that have most abilities own more money, that is the rule in science area, or other areas where physical appearance is not important.

I have "tested" that with numbers at the university I work, specially with the girls that are so attractive, versus the ones that are not, because the attractive ones use that characteristic with the male teachers, they always ask to be with some special teachers when they know the asignature is complex (like chemistry or maths), because they like to flirt with teachers to get help, but at the end that doesnīt work... male teachers know about that, and there is a massive system for evaluations where it is difficult to help only to one student.... so at the end I see them making an extra effort to be successful or definitively quit...

In part beautiful people have to work extra if they do not have the abilities that are required for making a good job where they have to use their neurons if they were used to have everything easy because of their beauty when they were younger....that is what I have seen in science.

About the most beautiful girls getting a husband faster and being happier, yes that is true but only for the first part. I saw that with several friends at the university, and one of them was one of the most beautiful of the career, she changed boyfriends so often, she had a lot of men to choose, she got compromised several times, because if someone "better" appears for being more attractive and having more money or social status, she chose him, and something funny here, the last one she was in love at the end of the career was a very gorgeous English boy that came to Colombia as exchange program, at the university, and they compromised and went to England...but there she realized that her "so social" personality made conflict with her boyfriend and his family, so she returned alone finally to our country...a little disappointed with life...I do not know what happened with her at the end, she really had so nice boyfriends, and she didnīt care about them, and you know that you canīt continue being beautiful through the years....

The only rule that certainly apply here in chile and in my country Colombia is that the people that have all the opportunities since being young for being wealthy get the better opportunities in life, because they have the better education, they can travel around the world, they speak several languages, and have a lot of good contacts to get a good job and of course they can go to the better universities if they have the abilities, they are part of the "elite class", that get all easier. And they are the people that travel in First Class as is posted in one of the links you show us.

That is the discussion that is going on here about education, the children with less opportunities at school have less opportunity to finish it for personal problems and never can go to the university, so there is the necessity to create the same opportunities for all the people, not only for the one than can have them without making an effort....

and my personal experience again, I had to make my biggest effort to be successful at school, and then at he university, only for my capabilities, and not for my external appearance. And that was the case when I applied for a job, my curriculum opened the doors... and I have decided to be practical in life, looking for the simplest things and not the most expensive ones, going against the "consume system", if I have to choose between a 5 starsī hotel, or a simple cottage in front of a wood or the sea when travel, I choose the last one... the "beautiful people and wealthy one" will choose the five star hotel for show his/her beauty an make business-personal contacts. I think that is a way of leaving, and you can choose.

Beautiful people have to expend so much money in their physical appearance if they have success because of that (you can see all the awful surgeries the actors have to do) , that is absurd since my point of view, and I prefer to be the most far I can from that... being happy with the simple and true things that life can give, not the artificial ones.


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Josephine Hymes
post Apr 12 2015, 04:07 PM
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I will reply to your question with the words of one of my colleagues: It's a bundle of features.

By that she meant that for every phenomenon, there is never one single direct cause that produces an effect. This is especially true in real-life social issues. Therefore, I think I can safely say that success, like any other social phenomenon, emerges under the influences of different factors, which may vary according to time, setting, and historical circumstances around which each case develops.

Are good-looks part of this bundle of features? Well, I have not read any serious study on this, but my educated guess would be that they are, in some occasions, but not in others. I grew up in a very poor neighborhood. I remember that there were a few really pretty girls in that neighborhood, but with time their beauty faded, crushed by the harsh circumstances of poverty. The oppression of their socioeconomic status and family situations were more powerful than their beauty. Said in other words, they did not have the necessary opportunities to capitalize their assets. I think the opposite can also be true, I mean, a very unattractive person beating the odds and achieving success (money, power, etc.). However, we have to accept that when people are under the same circumstances, good-looking people may have some advantages over those who are not so good looking, especially in certain professions. Also, being this a white-man's world, I suppose that good looks are more important if you are a woman, but they may be more effective if you are a white woman. As usual, women of color have a more difficult time to climb the ladder. Men, on the contrary, may get to the top without having good-looks as one of their assets, I suppose. Again, it all depends on getting all the right features in your bundle, hehehehe.


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nara
post Apr 12 2015, 04:49 PM
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Thank you ladies for your interesting insights. I personally think this article in particular is quite true: http://uk.businessinsider.com/beautiful-pe...ey-2014-11?r=US

and in this part of the world I've hardly seen beautiful people condemned to starvation or spinsterhood smile.gif Beauty is key in many ways, no matter what people say.

There's one thing that made me reflect, and it comes from Anneth. That she got a job at University simply sending over her CV and that her capabilities and qualifications were the winners. I've heard this happens in a lot of countries.

This is a thing that was told by a guy who works in the Italian public sector. Public sector in Italy means University, Public Administration, Postal service etc. You don't send over your CV and get an interview as it happens in most of the countries. You have go through public competitive examinations held quite rarely, where there are thousands of participants and where, in most of the cases, posts are already assigned from the start.

Nonetheless I was told by a guy who works in public administration, the criteria they used to select a colleague some years ago, where the public examination was held correctly (They didn't do a concorso just for the sake of it and the selection was real). There was first a written examination and out of 4000 people 5 where chosen for an oral examination. Of these there were 3 men and 2 women. All the candidates went very well at the oral examinations. How did they choose? The boss in that office was a man, so he asked his colleague: "So which one do you want in the office, the blond one or the brunette with curly hair?"

The brunette was prettier and she won the public examination.

Ok, Italian things are quite extreme, and thanks Goodness they don’t reflect the world’s reality; nonetheless I think the Business Insider article hits the nail on the head.

QUOTE
However, we have to accept that when people are under the same circumstances, good-looking people may have some advantages over those who are not so good looking, especially in certain professions. Also, being this a white-man's world, I suppose that good looks are more important if you are a woman, but they may be more effective if you are a white woman.


Oh yeah, and I'm not talking of the professional world only. This concept may be applied to everything. People with good looks in this part of the world, under the same circumstances, have a huge advantages and much more opportunities over plain people.
And let’s put it like this:

Would have Terence Granchester been that successful had he been an ugly guy? Or would have Candice been the most court shipped girl on the planet had she been totally plain? wink.gif

Why Cindrella was poor and beautiful and not poor and ugly?

Only lucky girls like Jane Eyre or Elisabeth made it alone... but they were lucky wink.gif

Even Obama (And Michelle) look like a movie stars! smile.gif

How many stories have you read of ugly people that became successful?

I'm sure they do exist but I bet they are a strict minority...


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Gretzky
post Apr 12 2015, 05:09 PM
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I rest my case.





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nara
post Apr 12 2015, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE(Gretzky @ Apr 12 2015, 06:09 PM) *














I rest my case.

Apart from the first, who would just need a change of hairstyle and he'll be fine, do you actually think the others are not good looking? smile.gif From a female perspective Mark and Bill are rather cool;) So is Angle and the others, also considering their age! smile.gif Anyhow my post was more about young people or people still in their prime and how beauty is seen in this part of the world.


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Anneth White
post Apr 12 2015, 06:04 PM
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Herei post both of the musicians I most love, and they are not the most good lucking (Streisand has a very different kind of beauty, and she kept her nose without surgery, making jokes about that...)

There is another important think when you want to avoid the selection for only physical characters, donīt apply if you think that is the way they choose the workers... the work they will do is not the more professional and the results will show it!

or fight against that: for several years was so common to add your picture in your curriculum and I hated that, so I never add one!! but I made clear the capabilities I had for the work they were asking, I was a foreign woman, and didnīt have contacts in any university (some times that is so useful because you belong to a group of work that can recommend you), so I built a good curriculum, working hard, knowing in my area that would be the rule in this country or mine!!

the good looking without capabilities can generate big problems in an enterprise!!! and that sooner or later will be known.

I think that you must fight for working in what you like, and making big efforts to achieve that. I am the director of the Bachelor program in an university and I must teach the students that have low levels of knowledge and scores the way to be successful, and only doing big efforts and having so much love for what they do (for having a professional career) make the difference, and non of them is good looking, they come from vulnerable families, poor families, and in my 10 years of work I have seen how they become in successful professionals working in the private and public system (of course not all, but all that put their souls in their projects).
There is another thing some of my students have, and that is their native last names (mapucheīs origin) and that is a big limit in this country, becase they must fight against foreign last names (from Germany or England principally...) but they must fight, showing their capabilities and they do that!!!

About Terence, I think that he would be so successful if was not gorgeous, being a good actor. About candy I think for the description mizuki made in CCFS she wasnīt a beautiful girl, she was short, a little fat, with so many freckles, an orphan, a tomboy, a poor girl... but she had a wonderful smile and aura, and liked to help people, that was her big tool for being successful in life (remember she wasnīt the best as a nurse at the beginning of her studies...)
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Gretzky
post Apr 12 2015, 06:04 PM
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Come on, Nara, you said beauties. Which of these are beauties????

Donald Trump needs more than a change of hair piece. Women flock to him for his money not his looks. I for one would rather crawl through a field of leeches than to have him touch me. But that's ok. I'm sure that feelings is mutual. And he's got wives way more gorgeous than me.

Bill and Mark may be cool but beauties they are not.

Kathryn Sullivan the astronaut was not old in that photo. Sure she and Angie look fine, as does Martha, but ravishing beauties they are not. And I dare anyone say they got to where they are by their looks.

Recent most successful women: JK Rowling, Stephanie Meyers -- fine, average looking ladies, not "beauties" by any means. Like Martha said, to be successful you have to actually do stuff.

Ok if you really must have an example of ugly and uncool but very successful, here's one for you. VP of USA, successful enough?



If looks is what gets one ahead, I want an explanation for this one.


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nara
post Apr 12 2015, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE(Gretzky @ Apr 12 2015, 07:04 PM) *
Come on, Nara, you said beauties. Which of these are beauties????

Donald Trump needs more than a change of hair piece. Women flock to him for his money not his looks. I for one would rather crawl through a field of leeches than to have him touch me. But that's ok. I'm sure that feelings is mutual. And he's got wives way more gorgeous than me.

Bill and Mark may be cool but beauties they are not.

Kathryn Sullivan the astronaut was not old in that photo. Sure she and Angie look fine, as does Martha, but ravishing beauties they are not. And I dare anyone say they got to where they are by their looks.

Recent most successful women: JK Rowling, Stephanie Meyers -- fine, average looking ladies, not "beauties" by any means. Like Martha said, to be successful you have to actually do stuff.

Ok if you really must have an example of ugly and uncool but very successful, here's one for you. VP of USA, successful enough?



If looks is what gets one ahead, I want an explanation for this one.


Ok, I think you didn't get my meaning. But Of course beauty alone in most common cases doesn't bring you anywhere!If you wish to understand the question, please read again my posts and the articles. smile.gif P.s. The guy above is not young but perfectly fine for his age BTW!


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Gretzky
post Apr 12 2015, 06:16 PM
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That said, I believe that people should not go around looking like shit. It's very annoying when people don't take basic good care of themselves. There is no excuse in work place for people to not shower, have bad personal hygiene (please don't come into office with full head of dandruff)), bad breath, shoddy unkempt clothing, messy hair, etc. People don't need to beuaties, but it is respectful to look your best when you're going to meet with clients, and look decent when your colleagues have to put up with you. You don't work in a bubble, you represent the company, and the department, or the division, whatever.

I also hate it that small minded, conservative Chinese parents do everything to discourage their daughters from looking half-way decent, all for fear that their daughters might be tempted by boys. Yes, beauty isn't everything. And girls shouldn't be fixated on only their looks. But its shitty that they make their daughters into these nerdy ugly ducklings all because God forbid their daughters might discover something very scary called "boys". I see so many Chinese girls grow up having no ambition, small minded, never a chance to branch out to heir full potential. They think they are just some small time nobodies because keeping them chaste seems to be the only thing that matters and their entire personhood value depends upon it. I honestly believe they might have achieve more if their parents don't keep them looking as ugly as possible.


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nara
post Apr 12 2015, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE(Gretzky @ Apr 12 2015, 07:16 PM) *
That said, I believe that people should not go around looking like shit. It's very annoying when people don't take basic good care of themselves. There is no excuse in work place for people to not shower, have bad personal hygiene (please don't come into office with full head of dandruff)), bad breath, shoddy unkempt clothing, messy hair, etc. People don't need to beuaties, but it is respectful to look your best when you're going to meet with clients, and look decent when your colleagues have to put up with you. You don't work in a bubble, you represent the company, and the department, or the division, whatever.

I also hate it that small minded, conservative Chinese parents do everything to discourage their daughters from looking half-way decent, all for fear that their daughters might be tempted by boys. Yes, beauty isn't everything. And girls shouldn't be fixated on only their looks. But its shitty that they make their daughters into these nerdy ugly ducklings all because God forbid their daughters might discover something very scary called "boys". I see so many Chinese girls grow up having no ambition, small minded, never a chance to branch out to heir full potential. They think they are just some small time nobodies because keeping them chaste seems to be the only thing that matters and their entire personhood value depends upon it. I honestly believe they might have achieve more if their parents don't keep them looking as ugly as possible.


Oh, this is a bit OT, but it's interesting. I didn't know. Are you from China? There are quite a lot of chinese people where I live, and honestly I've never seen girls look like that.


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nara
post Apr 12 2015, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE(Anneth White @ Apr 12 2015, 07:04 PM) *
Herei post both of the musicians I most love, and they are not the most good lucking (Streisand has a very different kind of beauty, and she kept her nose without surgery, making jokes about that...)

There is another important think when you want to avoid the selection for only physical characters, donīt apply if you think that is the way they choose the workers... the work they will do is not the more professional and the results will show it!

or fight against that: for several years was so common to add your picture in your curriculum and I hated that, so I never add one!!
but I made clear the capabilities I had for the work they were asking, I was a foreign woman, and didnīt have contacts in any university (some times that is so useful because you belong to a group of work that can recommend you), so I built a good curriculum, working hard, knowing in my area that would be the rule in this country or mine!!

the good looking without capabilities can generate big problems in an enterprise!!! and that sooner or later will be known.


I think that you must fight for working in what you like, and making big efforts to achieve that. I am the director of the Bachelor program in an university and I must teach the students that have low levels of knowledge and scores the way to be successful, and only doing big efforts and having so much love for what they do (for having a professional career) make the difference, and non of them is good looking, they come from vulnerable families, poor families, and in my 10 years of work I have seen how they become in successful professionals working in the private and public system (of course not all, but all that put their souls in their projects).
There is another thing some of my students have, and that is their native last names (mapucheīs origin) and that is a big limit in this country, becase they must fight against foreign last names (from Germany or England principally...) but they must fight, showing their capabilities and they do that!!!

About Terence, I think that he would be so successful if was not gorgeous, being a good actor. About candy I think for the description mizuki made in CCFS she wasnīt a beautiful girl, she was short, a little fat, with so many freckles, an orphan, a tomboy, a poor girl... but she had a wonderful smile and aura, and liked to help people, that was her big tool for being successful in life (remember she wasnīt the best as a nurse at the beginning of her studies...)


I've heard very good things of Chile. Actually in Italy a picture on your CV is mandatory so is the date of birth (In other countries this is illegal). Most people in public administration are recommended and meritocracy is the great unknown in Italy (which is nearly bankrupt and people are keeping getting away, even to Chile). So the tings you say are interesting as it shows how it is in your country. But my point was: beside a very rich and powerful man there's usually a very good looking woman. (Is this a case?) Moreover, if a company, especially in certain sectors, needs to select people with the same competences and CV they will choose the younger and the most good looking (more sales?). That's quite common in this side of the world. The reason is explained in the articles and not only those.

P.s. Barbara is beautiful in my opinion, and sooo charming!!


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Gretzky
post Apr 12 2015, 06:36 PM
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Dear Nara, one day you and I are gonna have to have a drink (or two, or maybe a bottle) and explore in depth the topic what "fine men" means.

Like I said, I'd rather crawl through a field of leeches than to have any bodily contact with Donald Trump, and we can add Dick Cheney to that list. Bill Gates I have lots of respect for but beyond that, no thanks. I'd be happy to attend a lecture though. Mark, seems like a good dude, but not my type. But I'm sure that if I was in college with him, no, I wouldn't have considered it, ever. But all these guys are pinnacle of succcess. What can I say? My loss. And they all have great wives who love them (or in case of Mr. Trump -- his money). Kudos to them.

I know what you are saying, I just don't think we need to be fixated on it. So what if someone gets ahead a bit with looks? We all have something we can offer that give us a a leg ahead. Why should looks be singled out as something bad? People have an automatic response that giving advantage to looks is shallow or unfair. I don't agree with that. Life is unfair. Say you have 2 candidates for a job. One is smarter and one is better looking. But life is not black and white. The smarter one may be a lazy lousy worker. Many smart people can't get anything done because they get stuck in analysis-paralysis. The better looking one may be someone who try harder and work harder.

And taking care of one's looks is a good indication that the person cares about himself/herself. I've found that in my profession, women look better as they climb higher and become more successful. You'd think the more successful we become, the less we need to rely on looks. But it is not that. The more successful we get, the more we want to take care of ourselves and present a nice image. We aren't born beauties, but we learned how to look better, and then use it to our advantages. Most people can look good by taking better care of themselves. We aren't trying to be movie stars.

Most people don't look bad because they naturally look bad either. They look bad because they have inner issues that affect their outward appearances. They may have drug/alcohol issues, personality disorders, negativity, anger management, inability to eat right and take care of their bodies, etc. In my experience, all these affect how people look on the outside. Then they blame the world for not giving them a chance because they don't look as good. But really, they are their own issues.

People like seeing good looking people. Again, I think 80% of the time people can look much better with a simple make-over. But it also takes work to build up inner knowledge so the person can have the substance to back up that outward appearance. It's years and years of work. It's too simplistic to just chuck it up to natural genetics. Very few people are naturally good looking. People who begrudge others for looking better...they should just try to figure out how to make themselves look better if they feel that things aren't fair.



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Gretzky
post Apr 12 2015, 06:55 PM
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Nara to answer your question: I'm Chinese American. It so happens that I'm an American expat living in China/Hong Kong right now. The phenomenon I describe isn't so common with Chinese Americans, but is very common with small families in Hong Kong and China...the families that are not as well educated. Everyday I see teenage girls on the metro who I personally wish to give a make-over.

One more thing about looks -- I'm a corporate lawyer. I can say that in law school, my peers (women) were average to nice looking, none were model/actress good looking. After all, we didn't decide to dedicate years of post-grad education, then working our butts off because we value looks above all. But in the 10+ years of my profession, I can say for sure that most of us look better as we become more successful. By the time we hit partner level, we look great. Why? Well, to start, we make more money. We can afford to buy better make up and designer clothes/suits. We can afford better hair products and go to expensive salons. Second, we have tons more confidence. Third, we are more educated...I don't mean school. I mean because of our work, we have to be well-rounded people. We have to pay attention to many things and learn many things so we can be good conversants in all types of social settings. All these end up reinforcing our outward appearance. So someone who don't know may take a first impression and think oh yeah, they got ahead because they look good. But the whole looking good was years and years of work both inside and outside. Not something we were natural born with, but maybe easy to assume by someone who are jealous, envious, or just finding an excuse as to why they didn't get ahead.


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Aniko
post Apr 12 2015, 07:15 PM
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Sorry, sorry I couldn't read all post and articles but according to my experience, in my place that don't represent the country, being handsome or beautiful may be more an obstacle than anything depending of the work place. We still think that the group matters more than the individual so we don't like people that stand out too much, in school if you are too smart you are bullied, if you are too cute people get jealous and fight for your attention. In my workplace, handsome men had it easier, because lot of our customers were women or gay men, but beautiful women had really hard times, my boss didn't want to hire them because he thought they intimidate the clients and he was rather right, people just don't trust them...they are often seen as superficial and idiotic people, or people just get jealous or depressed when they see them. I had several beautiful friends in my life and they seemed to have it harder than me who is very average, people are often mean to them. Their only advantage is to get better service in places where staff is of opposite sex...but it doesn't always work, if the clerk is an average joe, he may see her like a threat.

My brother is the popular type, not only because of his look, but because he looks inoffensive and childlike, women want to play mommy with him, he's more popular than the top model type who just make women uncomfortable. In the photography studio where I was working, the female staff when seeing those handsome men, were always WOW look at that guy, then, I bet he's a cheater, that he takes women for granted, who does he think he is? What a jerk, just ignore him...

So no, it's not easier for beautiful people in general, people don't take them seriously, make fun of them, bully them, envy them..etc. I think you have more chance to get a job if you look a bit nerdy and fat. About that, ladies in store are way nicer to me since I'm old and fat, I get freebies all the time, it's amazing!


Beauty is relative, we saw it in the hot men galleries, the same guy may appear handsome or ugly depending on who is looking. In fashion and photo we were looking for more than a pretty face, someone with something special not conventional beauties.

I personally prefer being ugly, I hate dresses, high heels, make-up and to follows standards, I doesn't feel comfortable when dressed up, I feel more like a doll or a puppet, I prefer the neglected look, it's more representative and that way I won't attract the wrong people tongue.gif Well not always.


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Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 17th January 2019 - 01:05 AM